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Chastten
Member
(11-10-2017, 11:36 PM)
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A couple of shrines were difficult due to them but otherwise no issues. Hardly an integral part of the game.

And I say this as someone that dislikes motion controls and thinks Mario Galaxy wouldve been a way better game without the pointy waggle thingies.
Joe T.
Member
(11-11-2017, 12:42 AM)
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I definitely don't give Nintendo a pass for putting that mechanic in play. I'm hoping they remove motion controls completely for the next game in the series or at least give you alternatives.
humansarehorses
Member
(11-11-2017, 12:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cpt Lmao

Nintendo generally assume that their fans are competent, especially with regards to Zelda.

Then Zelda's history of long tutorials is quite puzzling.
Platy
Member
(11-11-2017, 01:53 AM)
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Even if was the worst thing in the world, it is like what, 5 or 10 shrines ? Out of 120 shrines ? And those are like 1/4 of what you do in the game ?
DragonGirl
Member
(11-11-2017, 05:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chastten

A couple of shrines were difficult due to them but otherwise no issues. Hardly an integral part of the game.

And I say this as someone that dislikes motion controls and thinks Mario Galaxy wouldve been a way better game without the pointy waggle thingies.

How? I did all of the shrines. What ones with gyro puzzles were difficult? The moment I saw an "apparatus" I knew it would be cake. What are people having difficulty with?
Refreshment.01
Member
(11-11-2017, 10:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Chastten

A couple of shrines were difficult due to them but otherwise no issues. Hardly an integral part of the game.

And I say this as someone that dislikes motion controls and thinks Mario Galaxy wouldve been a way better game without the pointy waggle thingies.

The Galaxy part is interesting. How it would be a better game exactly without the Wii Remote use?

It's rather integral to the gameplay and it allows for actions that either are not possible with a more traditional controller or would be more complex, which as of the last decade of 3D Mario games is NO NO.

Contrary to your statement would say that something like Sunshine, could be a better game if it used a controller with the pointing abilities of Galaxy.

Originally Posted by humansarehorses

Then Zelda's history of long tutorials is quite puzzling.

2 games of the console 3D entries? Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. In the case of Twilight the tutorial was heavily integrated into plot development and Link's charecterization. So mainly we speak of Skyward Sword which was downright problematic with Fi.

But overall you do have a point. Nintendo got way too protective of the novice user in detriment of expereinced players in many of it's games. However, Breath of the Wild was a reversal of that trend.
Grinchy
Member
(11-11-2017, 11:01 AM)
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They were fine in Zelda. It's Mario Odyssey that you should be bitching about.
Manny Calavera
Member
(11-11-2017, 02:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by xviper

because BOTW is probably one of the VERY FEW games that did motion controls absolutely right, the motion-controlled shrines were one of my favorites in the game

Completely agree with this and it's not like there were so many of them and I thought they were a nice change to the regular shrines. The motion controls were perfect for aiming with bow as well.
humansarehorses
Member
(11-11-2017, 04:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Refreshment.01

2 games of the console 3D entries? Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. In the case of Twilight the tutorial was heavily integrated into plot development and Link's charecterization. So mainly we speak of Skyward Sword which was downright problematic with Fi.

But overall you do have a point. Nintendo got way too protective of the novice user in detriment of expereinced players in many of it's games. However, Breath of the Wild was a reversal of that trend.

The Great Plateau, requiring players to complete four shrines until they could leave, is very much a lengthy tutorial on how to play the game. It's just less restrictive and slightly less boring than the tutorials in other Zeldas.
UnemployedVillain
Member
(11-11-2017, 05:31 PM)
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There are like 4 of them in the entire fucking game. Maybe it doesn't get a pass and it's more people don't hold the game over something that accounts for a few percentage points at most of the entire experience
Refreshment.01
Member
(Yesterday, 03:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by humansarehorses

The Great Plateau, requiring players to complete four shrines until they could leave, is very much a lengthy tutorial on how to play the game. It's just less restrictive and slightly less boring than the tutorials in other Zeldas.

With the above claim you take away most of the weight of your original one:

*For context: talking about Breath of the Wild.

Originally Posted by humansarehorses

Then Zelda's history of long tutorials is quite puzzling.

Basically this reduces any game that presents the player with forced sequences that introduces mechanics with a gradual difficulty curve, to an string of "tutorials" with a progression path.

What were the problems introduced by how "Tutorializing" was implmented in some Zelda games with Skyward being a key example?
  • An experienced player is exposed to information he already knows.
  • Following playthroughs became more tedious.
  • Not only tutorial were not skippable but they got in the way to what people considered the "nutritious" parts of the game.
  • Most importantly they took away control and agency from the player.
Of the above points almost none of them applies to how the Great Plateau works in Breath of the Wild.

The meaty part of Zelda's gameplay: Exploration, Combat and Puzzle solving are available to the player just seconds after starting a new game.

The 4 "forced" Shrines provides Link with all the tools needed to progress through the game so in this sense the game offers the exact structure of progression stablished by the more traditional zelda entries: Dungeon -> Item -> Unlocks Progression. Unlike past tutorial sequences the Plateau gameplay is the exact same one experienced once the world fully opens up. So the barrier imposed in the other tutorials of past games doesn't exist.

Having the Plateau Dungeons as a forced sequence was the right design call as not doing so would create more problems than what having the Freedom to skip them would have brought up to the game.

However, the like to like tutorials of other Zelda games seen in Breath of the Wild are optional NPC sequences like the ones you can have by interacting with the Old Man.
Pila
Member
(Yesterday, 03:51 PM)
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I don't think that gyro stuff is a gimmick. It's great and more games need it. BOTW is just better with gyro aiming. Couple shrines were too much maybe but gyro aiming is a game changer, can't go back honestly.
knerl
Member
(Yesterday, 04:22 PM)

Originally Posted by Pila

I don't think that gyro stuff is a gimmick. It's great and more games need it. BOTW is just better with gyro aiming. Couple shrines were too much maybe but gyro aiming is a game changer, can't go back honestly.

Motion controls in BOTW is shit. At least when it comes to aiming. Controllers can't handle fast movements without losing track of where you started aiming completely shifting the camera even when you're not close to a radius where Link has to turn his body. Switch doesn't handle extreme or rather high values for motion control well at all. Emulating the game on CEMU using a DS4 for motion controls is like a whole new game since it can handle even extreme values and speeds with which you move the controller about.
Nintendo really gimped this aspect. As for getting a pass in this game I'd say it's because it's used ever so seldom unless you use it for bow aiming.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
(Yesterday, 05:55 PM)
Funny, I didn’t even know Breath Of The Wild had gyro controls and I own the game. Doesn’t sound “forced” to me.
Sapiens
Member
(Yesterday, 05:58 PM)
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You can set your watch to the obsessives coming out and complaining about motion controls.
ZAMtendo
Obliterating everything that's not your friend
(Yesterday, 06:05 PM)
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BOTW without gyro wouldn't be as good.
Chev
Member
(Yesterday, 07:02 PM)
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While I don't like gyro gimmicks they got a pass for me because I just deactivated the bow thing and solved several hammer shrines using stasis and magnesis before even realizing you could move the hammer with the gyroscope. That leaves the shrines where you have to rotate scenery and those don't require high reflexes so it was fine.
Wiped89
Member
(Yesterday, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by xviper

because BOTW is probably one of the VERY FEW games that did motion controls absolutely right, the motion-controlled shrines were one of my favorites in the game

WHAT

I love motion controls but the gyro shrines in BOTW were the fucking worst. Some of them (like the ball tilt puzzle) are borderline unplayable and the controls seem to bear no relation at all to what happens on screen.
Haganeren
Member
(Yesterday, 08:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by heckmanimation

the reason i bring this all up is because the GOTY debate thread is making me wonder how people can think it deserves to win when its just such a shitty mechanic. but thats not the point of this thread, so don't argue about that haha!

A movement you can't fully control used for something like a ball in a labyrinth is a mechanic i totally love, it's a little new and still perfectly controllable.

So no, i don't think it can alter its (potential) statut of GOTY material except for people who hates it like you i suppose.
humansarehorses
Member
(Yesterday, 08:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Refreshment.01

With the above claim you take away most of the weight of your original one:

Basically this reduces any game that presents the player with forced sequences that introduces mechanics with a gradual difficulty curve, to an string of "tutorials" with a progression path.

What were the problems introduced by how "Tutorializing" was implmented in some Zelda games with Skyward being a key example?

  • An experienced player is exposed to information he already knows.
  • Following playthroughs became more tedious.
  • Not only tutorial were not skippable but they got in the way to what people considered the "nutritious" parts of the game.
  • Most importantly they took away control and agency from the player.
Of the above points almost none of them applies to how the Great Plateau works in Breath of the Wild.

The meaty part of Zelda's gameplay: Exploration, Combat and Puzzle solving are available to the player just seconds after starting a new game.

The 4 "forced" Shrines provides Link with all the tools needed to progress through the game so in this sense the game offers the exact structure of progression stablished by the more traditional zelda entries: Dungeon -> Item -> Unlocks Progression. Unlike past tutorial sequences the Plateau gameplay is the exact same one experienced once the world fully opens up. So the barrier imposed in the other tutorials of past games doesn't exist.

Having the Plateau Dungeons as a forced sequence was the right design call as not doing so would create more problems than what having the Freedom to skip them would have brought up to the game.

However, the like to like tutorials of other Zelda games seen in Breath of the Wild are optional NPC sequences like the ones you can have by interacting with the Old Man.

Tutorial levels are meant to tutor the player. That is, they're meant to teach players how to play the game. Doesn't The Great Plateau do this? *Of course* it does.

Here's the dead giveaway that it's a tutorial: the entire game is structured to be non-linear, but you can't tackle any of it until you go through the four shrines in The Great Plateau.

It's still a forced tutorial level despite the structure being somewhat different from past Zelda games.
Refreshment.01
Member
(Yesterday, 09:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by humansarehorses

Tutorial levels are meant to tutor the player. That is, they're meant to teach players how to play the game. Doesn't The Great Plateau do this? *Of course* it does.

Here's the dead giveaway that it's a tutorial: the entire game is structured to be non-linear, but you can't tackle any of it until you go through the four shrines in The Great Plateau.

i already explained why the Plateau sequence is forced into the players. Basically if it wasn't it could cause potential issues. But to further expand, these are some of the ones that may arise in a first time playthrough:
  • 1. A design dilenma. If the game was designed around player progression withotuh having the Runes then the end product would need to simplify puzzles even further due to the player not having a full toolset and ability list for the player to experiment with.
  • 2. Player traversal and mobility would be compromised. Not having the ice rune and the paraglider would limit the player movement options, these options are one of the strong points of the game.
  • 3. A significant amount of people "think" that there's not enough world building. And also are desasisfied with the way the plot aspect of the game is handled. Remove this forced Plateau sequence would exacerbate this.
By having a core set of abilities full of potential that the designers are a 100% sure the player will have, it becomes possible for them to design a more fleshed out and interesting set of challenges early on in the game. As a nice bonus these sequence features a type of structure similar to the past 3D Zeldas withotuh compromising much of the overall sense of freedom the game allows.

Now it's your turn. What exactly would not having the obligatory Plateau add to the game?

Originally Posted by humansarehorses

It's still a forced tutorial level despite the structure being somewhat different from past Zelda games.

Already explained in the previous post. You seem to be dismissing how objectively different it is by saying "somewhat" different, When it fixes most of the main problems seen on introductory sequences of Twilight and Skyward:

What were the problems introduced by how "Tutorializing" was implmented in some Zelda games with Skyward being a key example?
  • An experienced player is exposed to information he already knows.
  • Following playthroughs became more tedious.
  • Not only tutorial were not skippable but they got in the way to what people considered the "nutritious" parts of the game.
  • Most importantly they took away control and agency from the player.
Of the above points almost none of them applies to how the Great Plateau works in Breath of the Wild.

The meaty part of Zelda's gameplay: Exploration, Combat and Puzzle solving are available to the player just seconds after starting a new game.


Compare the times in Twilight and Skyward to reach the first dungeon against Breath of the Wild or even Ocarina.
Pila
Member
(Yesterday, 09:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by knerl

Motion controls in BOTW is shit. At least when it comes to aiming. Controllers can't handle fast movements without losing track of where you started aiming completely shifting the camera even when you're not close to a radius where Link has to turn his body. Switch doesn't handle extreme or rather high values for motion control well at all. Emulating the game on CEMU using a DS4 for motion controls is like a whole new game since it can handle even extreme values and speeds with which you move the controller about.
Nintendo really gimped this aspect. As for getting a pass in this game I'd say it's because it's used ever so seldom unless you use it for bow aiming.

I have zero issues with the gyro aiming both in botw and splatoon, I just use it for small adjustements and they're great IMO. Nice to hear you were able to use a controller you like better.
MemoryHumanity
Member
(Yesterday, 11:33 PM)
I loved the gyro puzzles! But anyway, they account for, what, 15 minutes in a game with 200+ hours of content.
ronaldthump
Member
(Yesterday, 11:38 PM)

Originally Posted by Velius

2/10

You get the 2 because you got me to respond. On that topic, your Sony fanboyism isn't veiled very well. You need to be more subtle.

They didn't get a "pass". People looked for reasons to criticize the game, as they should have.

The game has flaws. They've been pointed out extensively, in part because it does so much so very well.

Still 97 on MC, and still GOTY. You're just going to have to learn to live with it.


this is a terrible post and you should be ashamed.
specdot
Member
(Today, 12:09 AM)

Originally Posted by xviper

because BOTW is probably one of the VERY FEW games that did motion controls absolutely right, the motion-controlled shrines were one of my favorites in the game

I remember a lot of people saying the same thing for Skyward Sword, and they too were wrong.
FoxHimself
Member
(Today, 12:25 AM)
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Wait, I don't get this topic at all.

There are only like two or three shrines out of 120 that uses motion controls. It's not mandatory or forced at all, and certainly not at all "integral to its gameplay". Just turn them off in the menu and play the game like any other game with aiming if you don't like them?

I never swung a hammer with motion controls in my 200 hours in the game.

Out of those two/three shrines, most found them to be perfectly fine. I spent maybe five minutes in total on them...

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